Curse

Master Mxyzptlk · Apr 11, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I don't want damage buffs. If I wanted to do damage i wouldn't play a mesmer. I would like to see improved support so i could do party buffs like paragons or br necros, or play a role like a protection monk but by focusing on the enemy instead of the ally.pve applicable shut down not damage please.

R_Frost · Apr 11, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Buff CoP.

For a brief time, mesmers were desirable because of CoP. (Yes, there were a whole lot of E/Me and N/Me going around, but that was only because many people were too dumb to realize how much stronger Me/A was.) Then CoP got nerfed to put an end to degenerate Cryway teams. The nerf was too harsh because there was a way to kill Cryway without killing CoP. This might be a good time to revisit that mistake and do it right:

revert back to the original or close to original version of CoP but tie damage or effects to the fastcasting attribute preventing other professions from abusing. they had to do the same thing to the assassin skill critical agility. when it was first released it was abused by warriors til the skill was tied to critical strikes.

Cuilan · Apr 11, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

they had to do the same thing to the assassin skill critical agility. when it was first released it was abused by warriors til the skill was tied to critical strikes.

Mesmer players generally don't have more than 9-10 fast casting with runes. Some of it because mesmers have to split their attributes 3 ways or more because of inspiration for energy.

Even if it did do good damage and had a better draw back to make it fair without having cry teams, it won't happen because of double standards. Buffing mesmer damage doesn't mean mesmers will be better at damage than disruption if the update is as good as it's suppose to be. Just means...mesmer damage is being improved.

Burst Cancel · Apr 11, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Because the AI are always going to swing through (except for a few skills when they'll stop one hit short of dead), reactive hexes are equivalent to straight DPS in PvE. If that DPS is comparable to the DPS on other options that you have to actively work for, it creates a perverse incentive to be lazy.

I disagree. Damage conditioned on enemy behavior is fundamentally different from active direct damage even with simplistic monster AI. As stated by drkn, the damage output of even the most basic conditional skills will vary based on monster properties: monsters with faster or multiple attack capability obviously take more damage from Empathy, and monsters with spammable spells obviously take more damage from Backfire. Damage also varies greatly based on monster behavior at that time: monsters retreat from aoe/low health, they can be kited, and they can be disrupted in a number of ways (hexed, blinded, knocked down, skill disabled, etc.), all of which can potentially affect the damage of punishment hexes.

Naturally, the focus of punishment hexes in PvE is fundamentally different from PvP. In PvP they are geared towards preventing the opponent from taking a particular action, or forcing difficult situational decisions by imposing additional cost on that action. In PvE, the conditional punishment sharply narrows the utility of the skill (i.e., Backfire is only useful against casters) while requiring better understanding of the monsters and better situational awareness (i.e., Backfire goes on the spammy monk or the necro that hasn't exhausted his entire skillbar yet).

Thus, as a designer, you don't have to worry too much in PvE about the monsters always "swinging through" your punishment hexes - you just have to tailor the effect to how often or likely a monster with dumb AI is going to trigger the condition. For instance, I gave an earlier example of having Ineptitude deal bonus AoE damage and AoE blind if the attack is an attack skill - more powerful affect coupled to a narrower trigger condition. Given Ineptitude's short duration, while a player can be relatively sure that it will trigger at least the base condition (target foe attacks), getting the bonus condition (target foe uses an attack skill) within that duration is substantially less certain. This justifies the substantially stronger effect.

Switching gears, the problem of interrupt viability is complicated. I had come to the same conclusion that you did (the slowing effect needs to be both preemptive and persistent), but this is an extremely strong effect even without considering interrupts. I don't honestly see a good way to solve it in the current scheme. As you said, the hands-down best way to solve most of these problems is to actually give monsters good AI in Hard Mode instead of stat buffs, but ...

I also don't think the simplicity of damage+mitigation+healing in RPGs is a result of focusing on red bars; the problem is volume. Unlike PvP and competitive games in other genres, PvE-type RPGs require players to kill thousands of monsters, and all anybody really cares about is how quickly and profitably it can be done. It would be easy, I think, for designers to tune monster groups so that each encounter was more similar to a 16-man PvP deathmatch, but getting anything meaningful done would take hours upon hours.

Daesu · Apr 11, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Mxyzptlk

I don't want damage buffs. If I wanted to do damage i wouldn't play a mesmer.

And there lies the problem with PvE mesmers. Mesmers are a pvp designed class trying to do pve, like a fish out of water.

Quote:

I would like to see improved support so i could do party buffs like paragons or br necros, or play a role like a protection monk but by focusing on the enemy instead of the ally.pve applicable shut down not damage please.

Paragons have their own problems because they have only 1 effective pve build which involves pve skills, so paragons are NOT the best example of where mesmers should be, where pve is concerned.

Having completed all campaigns NM and HM with mesmers, necros, and rits, I have to say mesmers are under powered in pve relative the DPS that rits can dish out. Yes mesmers can be effective enough (how do you think I completed all campaigns with them), but compared to rits and necros, they are PvE underdogs.

Like it or not, PvE is about how much damage you can dish out in the shortest amount of time. With current overpowered meta using minions and spirits for damage mitigation, you dont usually need interrupts.

jazilla · Apr 11, 2010, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I just think there should be secondary things that happen when Mesmers interrupt. If you interrupt a target, it will apply a condition or some degen. I know that some already do this, but more of it is what Mesmers are all about. Make more of the skills AoE based as well. You can take some of the initial damage off of the top of some of the skills to balance this, and spread it out to degen as an area effect. This would also promote NOT having to split the skills and bring back some reason to interrupt on a mesmer more. Doing a split is alright I guess, but I am more a fan of being able to use them for both when an update hits.

Apok · Apr 11, 2010, 04:56 AM // 04:56

The only way to properly make Mesmers attractiv to pugs (why do we want this, actually) is to give them a purpose and a role that is both beneficial to the damage portion and the mitigation portion of the team. Take a look at the current roles being favored:

SoS Rit: Mainly for meat-shields, single/crowd target damage spikes, and access to stronger spirits.

HB (monk): HB/HP for party healing, seed for instant coverage, patient kiss combo, etc.

Tank: ....any build containing SF and shroud.

HB (war): tele, aoe spike damage, tank-like armor, sun-moon for stragglers

MoP necro: reason for above being so effective, support, etc.

imbagon: party-wide armor, and..... well, that goes a long way in HM, so yeah.

The thing is, there are many mesmer skills already that can be revamped for pve purposes without breaking the game. And guess what? All of them are hexes.

Hexes! The one thing that AI refuses to back off from triggering. One of the reasons why necro heroes are so useful.

I mean, really, what else can Mesmers do to make them more appropriate for end-game pve? All of their damage relies on their target doing something or having something, CoP was abused by every profession that had Ether Nightmare, degen doesn't work on stuff with 10k health, interruption is worse than simply killing them in 3 seconds, e-denial is only good for healing monsters and Famine, stances are too area-specific (looking at you, mantras of eles), and FC Nuking isn't favorable anymore because of HM giving every monster 200 armor...

The only real way to make Mesmers potential upstanding members of PvE is to make their hexes either mitigate damage better than necro hexes would (like, increased casting time or decreased attrib points), or easier to dish out damage (decreased armor stacked with CA, hex version of DW's health decreasing effects, damage multiplier)

Lillium · Apr 11, 2010, 07:08 AM // 07:08

As a main mesmer, for the most part I honestly don't have any issues with how interrupts are. Most of them, assuming you can manage to get them off usefully, are actually quite balanced (if a little slow recharging sometimes). HM monsters casting twice as fast is not an issue with the way a mesmer functions, its an issue with a game function that happens to deny human players the ability to do something.

The real issue I have with the mesmer class is over-heavy drawbacks on most every skill. For example Blackout: unless you've got 10+ domination you've just disabled yourself longer than the foe you used it on. What's more? You're a sitting duck for the five other enemies not disabled, that you now happen to be right next to as Blackout is a touch skill.

Of course, most skills the drawback isn't as severe, it's just an energy cost that is far too high. Exactly as Chthon said:

Quote:

4. Energy Management.

Mesmers have the most e-management skills of any caster class, but the worst e-management.

One part of the problem is that a lot of mesmer skills are overpriced because they were designed around Inspiration being there (much like a lot of necro and ranger skills are overpriced). These e-costs were never reduced even though Inspiration took nerf after nerf, leaving mesmers unable to pay for their own skillset.

A second part of the problem is the long recharges on many of the e-management skills. One fix is to lower the recharges. Another would be adding a change to recharge all skills to Fast Casting, as described above.

My suggestion would be an increase of energy gain from the various energy management skills, even if only by 1-2 energy per use/steal/etc. More energy stealing would be interesting, particularly if energy denial got a kick into viable. Energy Burn and Surge, why can't we steal that energy instead of causing loss? Ether Lord, why do I have to loose all my energy when it's not even AoE? Spirit Shackles, can I steal some of that energy instead of just causing a loss? Waste Not Want Not, can I cause a loss of energy in that laze arse doing nothing?

I would honestly be happy if direct interrupts (ex Power Drain) were not buffed at all, as that would only be a hero buff not a player buff. To be realistic, anet is not going to change long standing factors of hard mode such as spells casting faster, so better effects on interruption will mostly be wasted. More, interruption is not all a mesmer can do. Most of my mesmer bars (read: mine, not heroes) are devoid of direct interrupts, as I have less than AI reflexes, I bring a ranger hero to do my interrupting and hex the crap out of everything. Most mesmer players I meet (that are not SoI fast casting another prof) are similarly ignoring great skills like Power Leech and playing Clumsiness/Wandering Eye/their favorite degen spell(s). Stress on the degen spells, in PvE where killing it faster is the only thing accepted few mesmer bars can afford to go without.
After energy management what really needs attention is hexes. Lower recharges, lengthen durations, lower some energy costs, and if it's not dealing large damage (Images of Remorse, not Backfire or Conjure Nightmare) make it AoE. I don't like to push for more things to be AoE, but when most monsters die in 2-5 seconds after you click on them and not because you were spamming the old CoP? It is a necessity.

Edit: Forgot to say, I love the ideas posted about linking more spells to FC. My idea to toss out there is instead of straight making hexes AoE to be abused better by other classes, link the number of other targets affected by mesmer hexes to FC. If certain single target hexes (Spirit of Failure, Conjure Phantasm, etc) were placed on say 1 more target per 4 ranks of FC many mesmers would be very very happy.

Regulus X · Apr 11, 2010, 07:27 AM // 07:27

I hope they double the hex durations of Backfire, Empathy, VoR, Ineptitude, Clumsiness, etc... and reduce their cast times to 2-1s, reduce the e.cost of shatter enchantment/hex to 10e, and so on...

reaper with no name · Apr 11, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Honestly, I think interrupts should not be a big part of this, simply because of that whole bot problem in PvP. If interrupts become powerful, we'd just start seeing those bots that interrupt stuff for you but let you otherwise play normally spill over into PvE.

dagrdagaz · Apr 11, 2010, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I would add energy degen to Mindwrack (not health degen).
Either very high energy degen during a short period and less end damage, or medium energy degen during a longer period and higher end damage.
The high energy degen version would work nicer with Aneurysm.

Linking some (way) better Mesmer skills or better effects to FC i like, but NOT a high FC requirement.
A little in FC is already enough to limit the better skills/effects to primary Mesmers.

The Only Warrior · Apr 11, 2010, 10:52 AM // 10:52

some PvE skill buffs would be nice, makeing skills like Backfire and Empathy have less dmg, and makeing them AoE skills, i would like to see Ineptitude as an AoE skill, maybe it would be a useful elite then, and we wouldnt go Me/E for Blind. changing fast casting so that it effects only mesmer spells(pvp/pve). changing some inspiration skills to effect others. make stances Self-Chants instead its called a Mantra for a reason. enbaling dmg to be delt more directly, too many mesmer skills are conditional.
change the skills in Fast casting which do NOTHING helpful. the problem is, mesmer skills are so over-powered, they have to be single-target units, which is good in PvP, but in PvE they need a wider range of skills/roles.

/done

aeronox · Apr 11, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Fast Casting is now twice as effective and now affects recharge time. When you cast a spell, you gain 2 energy for every 3 ranks of Fast Casting.

~~~> Mesmers are now mandatory nukers.

The Only Warrior · Apr 11, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeronox

Fast Casting is now twice as effective and now affects recharge time. When you cast a spell, you gain 2 energy for every 3 ranks of Fast Casting.

~~~> Mesmers are now mandatory nukers.

12 fast casting = 8 energy per spell, thats free spells for anything under 8, with no draw back, your thinking a bit too much buff, and its fast Casting, not fast Recharge

Skye Marin · Apr 11, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

The focus here is good damage output, however with diminishing returns if more than one player uses the same skills. The concept is to have one or two Mesmers as viable team members. Damage and Mitigation are present.

Persistence of Memory - (PvE only)
10 Energy. 20 Recharge.
Stance. For 5..30 seconds, whenever you interrupt a spell using one of your Mesmer skills, all your other skills are recharged instantly.

Mantra of Persistance - (PvE only)
10 Energy. 15 recharge.
Stance. For 30 seconds, Illusion hexes you cast last 20..50% longer, and whenever you interrupt a foe's spell with a Mesmer skill, that foe is dazed for 2..10 seconds.

Cry of Pain
Hex Spell. Interrupt target foe's action and remove one Mesmer Hex from target foe. If a Hex is removed, that foe and all foes in the area take 60..100 damage. If a spell is interrupted, that foe and all foes in the area suffer -3..5 Health degeneration (10 seconds)

Ether Nightmare
Skill. Causes 5...7...8 Energy loss. For 10 seconds, target and foes in the area have -1 Health degeneration for each point of Energy lost and casts spells 15% second longer for every rank of Fast Casting.

Aneurysm (PvE only)
5 ¼ 3
Spell. Target foe regains all Energy. For each point of Energy gained in this way, that foe takes 5..20 damage. (maximum 120 damage). No effect if Fast Casting is less than 8.

Mind Wrack (PvE only)
5 1 5
Hex Spell. For 30 seconds, whenever you cause target foe to lose Energy, that foe also loses 2..12 health for every point of energy lost. No effect if Fast Casting is less than 8.

Spirit of Failure (PvE only)
-Increased chance of miss to 50%, also hexes adjacent foes

Calculated Risk (PvE only)
-Also hexes nearby foes

aeronox · Apr 11, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Only Warrior

12 fast casting = 8 energy per spell, thats free spells for anything under 8, with no draw back, your thinking a bit too much buff, and its fast Casting, not fast Recharge

Really? RED ENGINE GO

Karate Jesus · Apr 11, 2010, 01:22 PM // 13:22

To be honest, I just hope they buff some Mesmer elites so they can be PvE viable w/o affecting PvP (or just make them PvE only).

Skills like Panic, Simple Thievery, Crippling Anguish, Migraine, Keystone Signet, Mantra of Recall (seriously, has anyone used this since the nerf to boon-prots?, and Shatterstorm.

Tbh, I'd be fine with a revert on Hex Eater's Vortex too. But, whatever. At least they're looking at it.

Highlander Of Alba · Apr 11, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

To be honest, I just hope they buff some Mesmer elites so they can be PvE viable w/o affecting PvP (or just make them PvE only).

Skills like Panic, Simple Thievery, Crippling Anguish, Migraine, Keystone Signet, Mantra of Recall (seriously, has anyone used this since the nerf to boon-prots?, and Shatterstorm.

Tbh, I'd be fine with a revert on Hex Eater's Vortex too. But, whatever. At least they're looking at it.

Well if you played a Mesmer before Eye of North , just prior to its release a statement by Anet.
We are looking at the mesmer and he needs a rebuild....

So think that out they were thinking then to no avail..dont get me wrong here I love palying a Mesmer......

And if they do then no use saying this or that to changeas the posts are mixed here combining PVP and PVE

So just ensure the split is Pve.... as they can handel themselves ok in PVP

Desert Rose · Apr 11, 2010, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I actually don't see the issue with buffing reactive punishment hexes.
(...)
e.g., Ineptitude does bonus AoE damage and AoE blind if the attack is an attack skill

I'm sure Chthon was talking about passive reactive hexes like Empaty, not active reactive hexes like Diverson. Simply put, passive hexes take nearly no skill to use, and should therefor be worse than playstyle that take more skill to use.
Your suggestion for Ineptitude would make the skill even more active because you have to time it very smart to gain the maximum effect instead of just spamming it.

Because many players complain that mesmer skills have to long recharge times to be useful in PvE maybe this skill change can satisfy them:

Mantra of Recovery - (PvE only)
5 Energy. 20 Recharge.
Stance. For 10...22...25 seconds, spells you cast recharge 33% faster. Your mesmer spells recharge additional 33% (or 27%) faster.

Increase the duration to keep it up (nearly) constantly, and increase the recharge reduction for mesmer skillls; since the reducement comes from a single skill it can surpass the cap of 50% skill recharge time.

drkn · Apr 11, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Simply put, passive hexes take nearly no skill to use, and should therefor be worse than playstyle that take more skill to use.

following that trail, and simply put, spamming damage skills or setting spirits require actually no skill to use, and should therefore be worse than passive reactive hexes, as they require some condition in order to be triggered.
if we start talking about 'skill to play', spamming fire nukes requires less awareness than spamming empathy and backfire.